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LEHRER: Good evening from the Ford Center for the Performing Arts at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. I'm Jim Lehrer of the NewsHour on PBS, and I welcome you to the first of the 2008 presidential debates between the Republican nominee, Senator John McCain of Arizona, and the Democratic nominee, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois.
主持人：晚上好，这里是牛津密西西比大学的表演艺术中心。我是来自公共广播公司《新闻时间》的吉姆.拉勒尔。我欢迎你们来到2008年首场总统竞选辩论。两位总统候选人是来自亚利桑那州的共和党提名人――议员约翰.麦凯恩，和来自伊利诺斯州的民主党提名人――议员贝拉克.奥巴马。
(注：牛津，密西西比南部一城市，位于田纳西州孟斐斯东南偏南。是密西西比大学的所在地（老密西），建于1844年，它是威廉姆・福克纳的家乡。人口9,882)
The Commission on Presidential Debates is the sponsor of this event and the three other presidential and vice presidential debates coming in October.
总统竞选辩论委员会是这次辩论以及即将在10月份的另外三次总统竞选辩论和副总统竞选辩论的主办者。
Tonight's will primarily be about foreign policy and national security, which, by definition, includes the global financial crisis. It will be divided roughly into nine-minute segments.
今晚的话题将主要围绕外交政策和国家安全。其中，国家安全包括了这次全球金融危机。我们将大概以9分钟为一段（辩论）。
Direct exchanges between the candidates and moderator follow-ups are permitted after each candidate has two minutes to answer the lead question in an order determined by a coin toss.
我们将用掷硬币的办法来决定谁先回答引导问题。在两位候选人分别回答完后，可以进行直接交流。主持人也可以进一步追问。
The specific subjects and questions were chosen by me. They have not been shared or cleared with anyone.
具体的主题和问题都由我决定。它们从未被（我）向任何人披露或解释。
The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent, no cheers, no applause, no noise of any kind, except right now, as we welcome Senators Obama and McCain.
大厅中的观众都已经承诺保持沉默，即不欢呼，不鼓掌，不发出任何形式的噪音。除了现在――让我们欢迎议员奥巴马和麦凯恩。
(APPLAUSE)
（鼓掌）
Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.
让我以艾森豪威尔将军在1952年总统竞选时说过的一句话开始：“我们必须获得安全和财务偿还能力。事实上，军事实力的基础就是经济实力。”
With that in mind, the first lead question.
在脑中记住这个，让我们开始第一个引导问题。
Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?
先生们，在今晚这个特别的时刻，你们在金融拯救计划中站在哪里？
First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.
第一个回答问题的是你，议员奥巴马。你有两分钟时间。
OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.
奥巴马：好的，非常感谢你，吉姆，也感谢（总统竞选辩论）委员会，感谢密西西比大学今晚容纳我们。我无法想象我们还有比今晚讨论这个国家的未来的更重要的时刻了。
You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
你们知道，我们现在正处于我们历史上的一个决定性时刻。我们的民族被涉入两场战争（注：伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争），而我们正在经历自经济大萧条（注：1929年）以来最糟糕的金融危机。
And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.
尽管我们听说了相当多关于华尔街的事情，但你们那些在城镇主街上的人们（注：这里指美国城镇和乡村的典型居民）已经在（艰难地）努力了一段时间。你们都知道这（金融危机）也许会影响到经济的方方面面。
And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?
你们想要知道，它（金融危机）如何影响到我？如何影响到我的工作？如何影响到我的住宅？如何影响到我的退休金储蓄或者是送我孩子上大学的能力？
So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.
所以我们必须得即刻就行动了，而且我们得要明智地行动。我已经提出一系列的建议，以确保当我们从事这项重要的（金融）拯救行动时，纳税人（的权益）得到保护。
Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.
首先，我们必须确保整个过程有仔细的监督。可能（被国会通过）的7000亿美元是一笔相当大的数额。
Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.
第二，我们必须确保纳税人现在冒着风险投入的钱有可能拿回来并增加，只要市场――且当市场回复（正常）时。
Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.
第三，我们必须确保（这些钱）一分钱也不能变成CEO的银行账户或者成为黄金保护伞（注：企业的高级管理层或离任的政府官员在失去他们原来的工作后，在经济上给予其丰厚保障的安排）。
And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.
第四，我们必须确保我们正在帮助住宅所有者，因为问题的根源与在这个国家到处都在发生的无力偿付房贷有关。
Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.
现在，我们也必须承认这（金融危机）就是对议员麦凯恩所支持的乔治.布什这八年来失败的经济政策的最终裁决。（他们的）一个理论主要宣称的是我们可以撕碎（市场）管理和消费者保护，只要给予越来越多的（自由）直到极致，然后繁荣昌盛就会从天上掉下来。
It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.
（他们的）理论根本没有起过作用。而我认为经济的基础应该以中产阶级是否能进行公平交易作为衡量标准。这就是为什么我在竞选总统，这也是我所希望今晚我们将所讨论的。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:51:35
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.
主持人：麦凯恩议员，两分钟。
MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.
麦凯恩：好的，谢谢你，吉姆。谢谢所有人。
And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.
今晚我还有一个令人遗憾的消息：肯尼迪议员住院了。他是我们最亲爱的一个朋友。让我们向议会的雄狮表达挂念和祈祷。
I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.
我也要感谢今晚容纳我们的密西西比大学。
And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.
而吉姆，我――我近来一直对很多事情感到不满。许多面临困难的美国人们也和我一样。然而今晚我感觉稍微好些了，我会告诉你为什么。
Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.
这是因为我们在今晚这场辩论上，我们看到，这是相当长一段时间以来第一次共和党人和民主党人坐下来，尝试作出一个我们所面临的金融危机的解决方案。
（注：我认为麦凯恩此言，意在抨击民主党人的“不合作”。当然，这个“不合作”是由他所定义的。）
And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.
我们毫不怀疑这次危机的危害性。我们现在不是在讨论华尔街那些机构的破产，我们是在讨论城镇主街上（那些人）的破产。如果我们不解决掉这次重大的财政危机，也许――不，毫无疑问地，在我们的有生之年，人们将失去他们的工作，他们的银行存款和他们的家。（笑）我已经伴随（金融危机）一段时间了。
But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.
但重点是――重点是，我们终于看到了，共和党人和民主党人坐下来一起磋商并将提出一系列方案（注：由于找不到中文对应于package的这个意思，只好用一系列方案来代替了）。
This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.
这些方案应该有透明性。它们应该可以落实责任和监管。它们应该包括转让衰退中的生意的债权，而不是让政府直接接管这些债权。我们必须――不，这些方案还应当包括许多其他的必需元素。
And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.
还有，我回了一趟华盛顿，并会见了众议院的共和党议员们。他们并没有参与磋商，我理解。是共和党议会决定，他们也将是解决这次（金融危机）问题的一部分。
But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.
但今晚我想对所有的美国人强调一点。现在不是金融危机尾声的序幕。即使我们拿出一系列解决方案使得那些（金融）机构稳定，现在也只是金融危机序幕的尾声。
And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.
我们还有很多事情要做。我们得创造就业岗位。而创造就业岗位中一件（要做的）事情就是消除我们对外国石油的依赖。
（注：个人以为麦凯恩在最后几句话里渲染金融危机的严重性，然后稍微透露一点“宏图和前景”，企图加强美国人对他的依赖感。很古老的招数，但政客们都在用。）
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:56:39
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.
主持人：好的，让我们回到我的问题。你们两位在经济救援计划中站在哪边？直接告诉对方。我们还有5分钟。我们现在就可以在这里商讨出一个结果。
But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?
我（先前的）意思是，你们支持这个（经济救援）计划吗？奥巴马议员，还有你，麦凯恩议员？你支持这个计划吗？
OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.
奥巴马：我们还没有看到这个计划。我认为在（国会）正在进行一项建设性的工作。所以，我想对观众们说，我对我们一起提出一项计划的能力表示乐观。
（注：奥巴马这里回避了主持人的问题。他还是没有说他究竟是支持还是不支持。他的回答是一个non-answer，我们称为打太极、不表态。）
The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?
问题是，我在想，我们应该问问我们自己的是，我们是如何首次进入这种状况的？
Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.
两年前，我就警告过，由于次级贷款的混乱，由于松懈的管理，我们可能正在走向潜伏的问题。我还试图阻止一些当时抵押的滥用。
Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.
去年，我写信给财政部长，以确信他意识到这个问题的严重性。我呼吁他召集投资人设法解决这个问题。
So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.
所以，这个我们询问自己的问题，我认为，我们应该在短期内解决金融问题。我们需要干涉了，不容怀疑。
But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.
但我们也需要看看，是什么让我们撕裂了那么多的（金融）管理？我们没有设立一个21世纪的管理框架来处理这些问题。而这（金融危机）部分地与一种经济理念有关。这种经济理念说（金融）管理总是坏的。
（注：奥巴马不但回避了问题，而且开始了强烈地对布什政府，以及支持布什政府的麦凯恩议员的抨击，认为他们的观念有问题。）
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:58:32
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?
主持人：你会支持（金融拯救）计划吗，麦凯恩议员？
MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...
麦凯恩：我――我希望是，而且我……
LEHRER: As a United States senator...
主持人：作为一位美国的议员……
MCCAIN: Sure.
麦凯恩：当然。
LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?
主持人：……你是说你会投票支持这个计划？
MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.
麦凯恩：当然。但是――请让我――让我指出来，我同样也警告过了联邦抵押协会和联邦房贷抵押机构，警告过了（金融）企业的贪婪和无度，还有CEO的（高）薪水，所有这些。我们很多人都看到了这火车即将来临的失事。
（注：Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)
But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.
但这里同样要考虑责任的问题。你（主持人）提到了总统德怀特.大卫.艾森豪威尔。艾森豪威尔总统在进攻诺曼底的前夜，走进他的房间，写了两封信。
One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.
其中一封信是庆祝部队和盟军中的杰出成员成功地完成了历史上最伟大的一次进攻，到现在，直到永远。
And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.
他还写了另一封信。那是一封向美国军方的辞职信。辞职的理由是诺曼底登陆的失败。
Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.
不知何故，我们的责任没有落实。我一直饱受批评，因为我要求证券交易委员会的主席辞职。我们得让人们（为自己的工作）负责，并奖励那些（工作上）成功的人们。
But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.
然而，在今天的华盛顿――我恐怕华尔街也是，不知为何，贪婪得到奖励，无度得到奖励，而腐败，或者无疑地说失职得到奖励。
As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.
（如果）我是美国总统，在我的管理下，人们将（为自己的工作）负责。我向你们保证那将实现。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:59:40
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?
主持人：你有没有一些对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的话直接要说的，奥巴马议员？
OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.
奥巴马：嗯，我认为我们确实需要更多的责任（感），麦凯恩议员（在这点上）完全正确，但我们不应只在危机出现的时候才需要它（注：奥巴马此言，已经在影射麦凯恩及执政的共和党人在之前的不负责任，导致了现在的这场金融危机）。我指的是，在过去的数年时间里，占统治地位的经济思想总是考虑什么对华尔街有利，而不是什么对城镇大街（上的人们）有利。
And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.
而且，在（金融）危机发生之前，就有那么一些人在（辛苦地）挣扎了。这也是为什么我们在解决这个短期（金融）问题的时候，看看一些深层次的问题是如此重要。这些问题让普通美国人的工资和收入下降，让医疗系统破碎，让能源政策失效。因为……你知道，10天前，约翰（麦凯恩）还在说经济的根本还是健康的。
（注：奥巴马在这句话的最后提到“因为……”时，停顿了一下，他其实真正想说的是“就是像麦凯恩这样的共和党人导致了现在的金融问题”，但他需要仔细斟酌措辞，不能说得太过，以免被对手抓住把柄。麦凯恩其实也有苦衷，10天前他还没有意识到金融危机是如此迅速地展现在了所有人面前，他还以为那些华尔街的投资银行可以撑一段时间。也因为他还需要支撑住他背后的共和党，需要修饰共和党的执政能力。这使得他不得不硬着头皮说“经济根本还是健康的”。不料到了今天辩论的时候，几大投资银行相继破产或转行，他所说过的话也就成了奥巴马所攻击的把柄。这其实和某些人说“照片是真的”有异曲同工之妙。下面就看麦凯恩如何拆招了。）
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。
OBAMA: I do not think that they are.
奥巴马：我不认为经济的根本是健康的。
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。
OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the
fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...
奥巴马：好的，约翰，10天前，你还在说经济的根本还是健康的，而……
MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?
麦凯恩：（笑对主持人）你担心我听不到他说话吗？
(LAUGHTER)
（笑声）
LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each
other. I'm going to try.
主持人：我只是想要让你们俩互相交流。我想试试（笑）。
OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.
奥巴马：而我根本就不同意这点。除非我们不论什么时候都让我们（对我们的工作）负责，而不是在出现危机的时候。（这危机只是）让某些有权力和影响力的人可以雇佣说客（而已），而坦白地说，对于护士、教师、警员，每个月的月末，都有着金融危机在上演（注：这里指房贷）。
They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.
他们必须拿出额外的钱来偿还抵押贷款。我们一直没有注意到他们。但你们如果看看我们的税收政策，那就是一个典型的例子（注：指税收和房贷一样，都在抽取着普通美国人的收入）。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:00:13
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 6 楼
文章提交者：忍辱负重执政 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
给个下载链接看看呀
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:01:33
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 7 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
对不起，因为这个东西是我自己手工翻译的，所以只能一篇篇地贴上来。
我已经翻译了一半了。之所以想到要翻译这个，也是因为这几天偶然间看到了2008年美国总统竞选辩论的录像，觉得很有意思。想找个中文版看看，结果google了一下居然没有找到。再搜索了往届的辩论，也没有找到中文版。所以我就决定自己翻译一下发上来给大家共享一下。
我翻译得很烂，也很慢。但我想只要基本上把意思说清楚就行了。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:04:06
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 8 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.
主持人：那么，麦凯恩议员，你同意奥巴马议员刚才所说的吗？如果你不同意，告诉他你不同意什么。
MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.
麦凯恩：（我）不同意。我……你看，我们得修理（我们的金融）系统。这个系统的根本有些问题，而城镇大街（上的人们）正在为华盛顿和华尔街的无度和贪婪付出代价。
So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.
所以，毫不怀疑，我们有很长的路要走。而且，很明显地，对各种各样没有做好他们工作而导致了这场（金融）危机的管理机构（实行）更加严格的整理和合并。
（注：好个太极推手。麦凯恩接过奥巴马的咄咄逼人的锋头，顺势将这股力打向了金融管理机构。须知麦凯恩竞选的一个主要口号就是他要规整政府部门，改整机构。麦凯恩努力让大家把注意力集中在金融机构的失职上，而不是执政的共和党上，可谓用心良苦。然则美国老百姓也不是傻子。实事求是地说，这次金融危机，作为执政党的共和党确有较大责任。麦凯恩这一捣浆糊，看来很难糊弄过去。）
But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.
但我心中深信美国劳动人民的善良和力量。而且美国劳动人民是富有生产力和创造力的（人民）。美国仍然是（世界上）最大的生产国、出口国和进口国。
（注：当政客甜言蜜语地夸奖老百姓的能力时，就是要让老百姓做牛做马的时候了。麦凯恩寄希望于美国人民努力工作，把金融危机的洞给填实喽。这一招实在是失策啊！占人口大多数的美国工人不会吃这一套。而奥巴马想要从大企业家和富翁身上剥层皮来填金融的大洞，显然更能得到大多数美国人的欢心。从现在的支持率来看，也是如此。）
But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.
但我们一定要熬过这段时间，我深信美利坚合众国（能做到）。我还相信，在正确的领导下，幸福的生活就在我们前头。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:04:33
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 9 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: All right, let's go to the next lead question, which is essentially following up on this same subject.
主持人：好，让我们进入下一个引导问题。这个引导问题实质上是第一个问题的深化。
And you get two minutes to begin with, Senator McCain. And using your word "fundamental," are there fundamental differences between your approach and Senator Obama's approach to what you would do as president to lead this country out of the financial crisis?
主持人：麦凯恩议员，（这）两分钟从你那里开始。（我）用你的词语“本质”。如果作为总统，领导这个国家走出经济危机，你的方法和奥巴马议员的方法有什么本质上的区别？
MCCAIN: Well, the first thing we have to do is get spending under control in Washington. It's completely out of control. It's gone -- we have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the Great Society.
麦凯恩：呃，我们得做的第一件事情就是控制华盛顿（注：指美国政府）的开销。它（开销）完全无法控制了。它已经脱缰而出――我们现在是眼巴巴地看着（我们）建国以来政府规模最大的膨胀。
We Republicans came to power to change government, and government changed us. And the -- the worst symptom on this disease is what my friend, Tom Coburn, calls earmarking as a gateway drug, because it's a gateway. It's a gateway to out-of-control spending and corruption.
我们共和党人拥有了改变政府的力量，而政府也改变了我们。而――这种病最坏的症状，正如我的朋友，汤姆.科本所说，财政特别拨款是一种入门毒品，因为那是一扇门，一扇通向不受控制的花销和腐败的大门。
（注：麦凯恩这里没有说只有民主党人有腐败，而是坦诚说道共和党人也有人中毒了。gateway drug: 有一种假设，认为服用不大容易上瘾的药品可能会引人服用更加危险的毒品甚至引人犯罪。香烟、酒精等常常被人们称为gateway drug。我这里把它翻译为入门毒品。）
And we have former members of Congress now residing in federal prison because of the evils of this earmarking and pork-barrel spending.
我们国会的一些前成员，因为在财政拨款和地方建设经费上犯的错误，现在正蹲在联邦监狱里面。
You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don't know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers' money. And it has got to be brought under control.
你知道吗，我们花费了300万美元，用在研究蒙大纳州的熊的DNA上面。我不知道这究竟是（有人）犯罪还是家长式作风，但事实上是，那可是我们纳税人的300万美元呐。那应该被控制住。
（注：蒙大纳州：美国西北部与加拿大接壤的一个州。1889年被接纳为美国第41个州。大部分地区通过1803年路易斯安那的购买归属美国，路易斯和克拉克在1805年和1806年勘查了此地。经过多年在其他西部地区分裂之后在1864年组成蒙大纳地区。赫勒拿是该州首府，比林斯是最大城市。人口803,655）
As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen. This one's kind of old. I've got a pen, and I'm going to veto every single spending bill that comes across my desk. I will make them famous. You will know their names.
（如果我）作为美国的总统，我要向你们保证――我有一只钢笔，这只有几分旧了――我有一只钢笔，而我将会否决掉每一笔经过我办公桌的开销提议。我会让它们臭名昭著。你们将知道它们的名字。
Now, Senator Obama, you wanted to know one of the differences. He has asked for $932 million of earmark pork-barrel spending, nearly a million dollars for every day that he's been in the United States Senate.
现在，奥巴马议员，你想要知道我们的一个区别。他（奥巴马）已经请求了9.32亿美元的财政拨款，自他当上美国议员后的每一天几乎都要走了100万美元。
I suggest that people go up on the Web site of Citizens Against Government Waste, and they'll look at those projects.
我建议人们登陆反对政府浪费公民网，就会看到（奥巴马）那些项目。
That kind of thing is not the way to rein in runaway spending in Washington, D.C. That's one of the fundamental differences that Senator Obama and I have.
那样的事情不是让华盛顿的开销放慢下来的做法。这就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质的区别。
（注：麦凯恩终于亮牌了，且看奥巴马下面如何应对。）
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Senator Obama, two minutes.
主持人：奥巴马议员，两分钟。
OBAMA: Well, Senator McCain is absolutely right that the earmarks process has been abused, which is why I suspended any requests for my home state, whether it was for senior centers or what have you, until we cleaned it up.
奥巴马：呃，好的，特别拨款程序已经被滥用了，麦凯恩议员（在这一点上）完全正确。这也是为什么我暂停了来自我家乡的任何（拨款）申请，不论是为了老年中心还是诸如此类，直到我们（政府）有了盈余为止。
（注：Earmark -> 在美国，Earmark指的是议员为他们的州或者地区所争取到的特别拨款。每个州或地区的居民选出一个议员来代表他们的利益，而这个议员则会向国会争取特别拨款来建设他们的家乡。这些财政拨款来自于所有美国人的税收。这些钱可称得上是取之于民，用之于民。如果议员将其中一部分钱据为己有，就叫作 "pork barrel"。一些联邦的议员已经为此进了大牢。）
And he's also right that oftentimes lobbyists and special interests are the ones that are introducing these kinds of requests, although that wasn't the case with me.
而且很多时候说客和特殊需要是引入这类（拨款）申请的源头，他（麦凯恩）（在这一点上）也是正确的。然而我的情况却有所不同。
But let's be clear: Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing -- and this is a fundamental difference between us -- $300 billion in tax cuts to some of the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country, $300 billion.
让我们把话说清楚：在去年的预算中，特别拨款占了180亿美元。麦凯恩议员建议――这是我们俩的一个本质上的区别――向某些这个国家上最为富有的企业和个人的3000亿美元的减税计划，3000亿美元。
Now, $18 billion is important; $300 billion is really important. And in his tax plan, you would have CEOs of Fortune 500 companies getting an average of $700,000 in reduced taxes, while leaving 100 million Americans out.
现在，180亿美元重要；3000亿美元则非常重要。在他（麦凯恩）的减税计划中，你会发现财富500强企业的CEO们平均减税70万美元，而一亿美国人却被排除在外。
So my attitude is, we've got to grow the economy from the bottom up. What I've called for is a tax cut for 95 percent of working families, 95 percent.
所以我的态度是，我们得让经济从底层增长起来。我所呼吁的是向百分之95的工薪家庭的减税计划，百分之95。
And that means that the ordinary American out there who's collecting a paycheck every day, they've got a little extra money to be able to buy a computer for their kid, to fill up on this gas that is killing them.
那意味着那些每天都在挣薪水普通美国人，会有一些额外的钱来给他们的孩子购买电脑，来（给他们的车）加满那些要他们命的汽油。
And over time, that, I think, is going to be a better recipe for economic growth than the -- the policies of President Bush that John McCain wants to -- wants to follow.
而随着时间的过去，我认为，（我的方案）将是让经济增长的更好的处方――比麦凯恩议员想要遵循的布什总统的政策更好。
LEHRER: Senator McCain?
主持人：麦凯恩议员？
MCCAIN: Well, again, I don't mean to go back and forth, but he...
麦凯恩：这个，我再说一次，我不是要来回扯皮，但是他……
(CROSSTALK)
（插话）
LEHRER: No, that's fine.
主持人：没关系。
MCCAIN: Senator Obama suspended those requests for pork-barrel projects after he was running for president of the United States. He didn't happen to see that light during the first three years as a member of the United States Senate, $932 million in requests.
麦凯恩：奥巴马议员在竞选美国总统开始後就停止了那些拨款申请项目。而在他作为美国议会成员的前三年，没有见过他良心发现，9.32亿美元的申请啊。
（注：麦凯恩真够阴的，这句话我认为是在诱导听众制造假象。只要仔细思考一下，就会知道奥巴马之所以在竞选总统後停止了拨款申请，很有可能是因为太忙了，没有时间去国会辩论、争取那些建设经费了。而麦凯恩这么说乃是要误导听众，让大家以为是奥巴马在竞选总统後，为了装纯洁，而暂时放弃了拨款申请。）
Maybe to Senator Obama it's not a lot of money. But the point is that -- you see, I hear this all the time. "It's only $18 billion." Do you know that it's tripled in the last five years? Do you know that it's gone completely out of control to the point where it corrupts people? It corrupts people.
也许对奥巴马议员来说那算不上多少钱。但问题是――你看，我总是听到这个:（又尖又长的挖苦音调）“不过是180亿美元”。你知道那（特别拨款）在过去五年里翻了三倍吗？你知道那已经脱缰而出无法控制，以至于腐化官员了吗？它腐化着人们。
That's why we have, as I said, people under federal indictment and charges. It's a system that's got to be cleaned up.
那就是为什么，如我所说，一些人遭到联邦起诉和控告。这是一个急需修整的系统。
I have fought against it my career. I have fought against it. I was called the sheriff, by the -- one of the senior members of the Appropriations Committee. I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate.
在我的职业生涯中，我一直在与之（腐败）斗争。我被一位财政拨款局的高级成员称为“县官”。我可不是美国议会中的好好先生。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:05:16
参考资料：美国国会和特别拨款制度
来源：维基百科
翻译和整理:renqilin
美国国会是一个立法机构，就是专门制定法律的机构。它有那么一点点类似于我国的人大。但它不是美国的最高权力机关。实际上，美国根本就没有“最高的”权力机关。它（国会）包括两个机构：参议院（也称为上院）和众议院（下院）。参议院的成员叫做议员(Senetor)，而众议院里的成员则叫代表(Representative)。参议院和众议院里的每一个成员都是由最普通的美国人直接选举出来的。
美国宪法规定，众议院里由435位代表组成，每位都代表了一个选区（每个州可能有多个选区）。每位代表的任期是两年，而每个州的代表人数则由该州的人口数量来决定。
宪法规定，参议院由100位议员组成。每个州只能有两位议员，不管人口多少。议员的任期是六年。但议员不是每过六年才选举，而是每两年选举一次（和众议院的代表一样），大约三分之一的议员将会被这两年一次的选举替换掉。
所以，对于普通美国人来说，他要选的人其实不多。每两年，他选举3、4位议员或代表来为他及他的家乡争取利益，每过4年，他选举一位总统就完事了。
全美国立法就靠这435+100=535位代表了。任何一项法律都要同时经过参议院和众议院的同意，以及总统签字，才能生效。然而，参议院和众议院在各自的权力上，又有不同点。参议院对于美国外交条约和总统的任命有着最终的同意或否决权。而增加税收的法案却只能由众议院发起（因为众议院更能代表美国百姓）。众议院有着一项独一无二的权力，那就是它可以弹劾任何一个美国政府官员。然而众议院也仅仅只能弹劾而已（就是只能控诉说谁谁谁犯了错误），审讯政府官员的权力则独一无二地在参议院的手里。而至于将政府官员免职和定罪，那又是另外的程序了，这里我就不再深究了。
说完了美国国会，现在来谈谈Appropriations Committee，我将之翻译为财政拨款局。它是参议院(100人）的一个常务委员会，也是最大的委员会，由29位成员组成。根据美国宪法规定，这个委员会的职责是确保法定拨款必须优先于其他任何从国库中的支出，正因为此，它也是权力最大的委员会之一。
美国财政拨款分为两类，一类是法定的强制性拨款，另一类是特别拨款（即麦凯恩在竞选中强烈抨击的appropriation bill）。法定拨款优先于任何支出，例如国家安全就是法定的。有些法律是有过期期限的，一旦该条法律过期，其相关的强制性拨款也就不复存在了。
而特别拨款则可以用于任何目的，例如如麦凯恩提到的，研究熊的DNA。然而特别拨款要求也很严格，必须同时经过参议院和众议院的同意，必须低于财政拨款局提出的预算限制，必须经过总统批准。
引用资料：
1. United States Congress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress
2. United States Senate Committee on Appropriations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States..._Appropriations
3. Impeachment in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_i...e_United_States
4. Direct election
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_election
5. United States budget process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States...dget_Resolution
6. Appropriation bill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_bill
Now, Senator Obama didn't mention that, along with his tax cuts, he is also proposing some $800 billion in new spending on new programs.
麦凯恩：现在，奥巴马议员没有提到，伴随着他的减税计划，还有用于新项目的8000亿美元的花费。
Now, that's a fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama. I want to cut spending. I want to keep taxes low. The worst thing we could do in this economic climate is to raise people's taxes.
那就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质区别。我想要消减（政府）花费。我想要保持低税率。在当前的经济气候下，最坏的事情就是从人民那里增加税收了。
OBAMA: I -- I don't know where John is getting his figures. Let's just be clear. What I do is I close corporate loopholes, stop providing tax cuts to corporations that are shipping jobs overseas so that we're giving tax breaks to companies that are investing here in the United States. I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage.
奥巴马：我――我不知道约翰（麦凯恩）从哪里得到他那些数据。让我们说清楚点。我所做的事情是关闭公司的漏洞，停止对那些向海外输出工作（机会）的企业的减税。这样我们才可以给在美国本土投资的企业减税。我确保我们有一个让每个人都得到基本覆盖的医疗系统。
I think those are pretty important priorities. And I pay for every dime of it.
我认为这些是要优先考虑的重要的事情。我会为之花出每一分钱。
But let's go back to the original point. John, nobody is denying that $18 billion is important. And, absolutely, we need earmark reform. And when I'm president, I will go line by line to make sure that we are not spending money unwisely.
但让我们回到开始的问题。约翰（麦凯恩），没有人否认180亿美元的重要性。而且，我们也的的确确需要改革专项拨款（制度）。当我是总统时，我将会一行一行地（检查拨款提议以）确保我们没有不智地乱花钱。
But the fact is that eliminating earmarks alone is not a recipe for how we're going to get the middle class back on track.
但问题是仅仅消除专项拨款，并不是让中产阶级回到正常轨道上来的办法。
OBAMA: And when you look at your tax policies that are directed primarily at those who are doing well, and you are neglecting people who are really struggling right now, I think that is a continuation of the last eight years, and we can't afford another four.
你看看你的税收政策，它主要对准的是那些（工作）做得好的人们，而你还在忽视那些现在正在挣扎着的人们。我认为那（麦凯恩的政策）是过去八年的延续，我们不能承受再一个四年了。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:12:37
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 15 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Respond directly to him about that, to Senator Obama about that, about the -- he's made it twice now, about your tax -- your policies about tax cuts.
主持人：（麦凯恩议员，）直接向奥巴马议员回答那个，那个）――他已经指出来两次了，关于你的减税政策。
MCCAIN: Well -- well, let me give you an example of what Senator Obama finds objectionable, the business tax.
麦凯恩：这个――这个，让我给你们一个被奥巴马议员找出来反对的例子，商业税。
Right now, the United States of American business pays the second-highest business taxes in the world, 35 percent. Ireland pays 11 percent.
目前，在美利坚合众国的生意缴纳着世界第二高的商业税，百分之35。在爱尔兰（只需）缴纳百分之11。
Now, if you're a business person, and you can locate any place in the world, then, obviously, if you go to the country where it's 11 percent tax versus 35 percent, you're going to be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment, et cetera.
现在，如果你是一个生意人，而你可以（把你的生意）放在世界上的任何位置，然后，显然，相对于收百分之35税的国家，如果你去只收百分之11的国家，你将可以创造工作机会，做大你的生意，作出更多的投资，等等。
I want to cut that business tax. I want to cut it so that businesses will remain in -- in the United States of America and create jobs.
我希望削减商业税。我希望削减它使得生意能够留在――留在美利坚合众国并创造工作（机会）。
But, again, I want to return. It's a lot more than $18 billion in pork-barrel spending. I can tell you, it's rife. It's throughout.
但，再说一次，我想回到（特别拨款的话题）。它远比180亿美元的建设经费花销多。我可以告诉你，它相当普遍，它已经遍及了（整个议会）。
The United States Senate will take up a continuing resolution tomorrow or the next day, sometime next week, with 2,000 -- 2,000 -- look at them, my friends. Look at them. You'll be appalled.
美国参议院将要继续一项决议，明天，也许后天，也许下个周。那是2000――2000――瞅瞅那个，我的朋友。瞅瞅，你会被吓坏的。
And Senator Obama is a recent convert, after requesting $932 million worth of pork-barrel spending projects.
而奥巴马议员最近洗手了，在申请了价值9.32亿美元的特别拨款项目后。
So the point is, I want people to have tax cuts. I want every family to have a $5,000 refundable tax credit so they can go out and purchase their own health care. I want to double the dividend from $3,500 to $7,000 for every dependent child in America.
所以问题是，我希望人们得到减税。我希望每个家庭得到五千美元的退税，这样，他们能出去购买他们自己的医疗保障。我希望每一个抚养美国贫苦儿童的奖金翻番，由3500美元到7000美元。
I know that the worst thing we could possibly do is to raise taxes on anybody, and a lot of people might be interested in Senator Obama's definition of "rich."
我知道我们最糟的做法也许就是向任何人增加税收，而许许多多人也许都会对奥巴马议员所谓的“富裕”感兴趣。
主持人：晚上好，这里是牛津密西西比大学的表演艺术中心。我是来自公共广播公司《新闻时间》的吉姆.拉勒尔。我欢迎你们来到2008年首场总统竞选辩论。两位总统候选人是来自亚利桑那州的共和党提名人――议员约翰.麦凯恩，和来自伊利诺斯州的民主党提名人――议员贝拉克.奥巴马。
(注：牛津，密西西比南部一城市，位于田纳西州孟斐斯东南偏南。是密西西比大学的所在地（老密西），建于1844年，它是威廉姆・福克纳的家乡。人口9,882)
The Commission on Presidential Debates is the sponsor of this event and the three other presidential and vice presidential debates coming in October.
总统竞选辩论委员会是这次辩论以及即将在10月份的另外三次总统竞选辩论和副总统竞选辩论的主办者。
Tonight's will primarily be about foreign policy and national security, which, by definition, includes the global financial crisis. It will be divided roughly into nine-minute segments.
今晚的话题将主要围绕外交政策和国家安全。其中，国家安全包括了这次全球金融危机。我们将大概以9分钟为一段（辩论）。
Direct exchanges between the candidates and moderator follow-ups are permitted after each candidate has two minutes to answer the lead question in an order determined by a coin toss.
我们将用掷硬币的办法来决定谁先回答引导问题。在两位候选人分别回答完后，可以进行直接交流。主持人也可以进一步追问。
The specific subjects and questions were chosen by me. They have not been shared or cleared with anyone.
具体的主题和问题都由我决定。它们从未被（我）向任何人披露或解释。
The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent, no cheers, no applause, no noise of any kind, except right now, as we welcome Senators Obama and McCain.
大厅中的观众都已经承诺保持沉默，即不欢呼，不鼓掌，不发出任何形式的噪音。除了现在――让我们欢迎议员奥巴马和麦凯恩。
(APPLAUSE)
（鼓掌）
Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.
让我以艾森豪威尔将军在1952年总统竞选时说过的一句话开始：“我们必须获得安全和财务偿还能力。事实上，军事实力的基础就是经济实力。”
With that in mind, the first lead question.
在脑中记住这个，让我们开始第一个引导问题。
Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?
先生们，在今晚这个特别的时刻，你们在金融拯救计划中站在哪里？
First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.
第一个回答问题的是你，议员奥巴马。你有两分钟时间。
OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.
奥巴马：好的，非常感谢你，吉姆，也感谢（总统竞选辩论）委员会，感谢密西西比大学今晚容纳我们。我无法想象我们还有比今晚讨论这个国家的未来的更重要的时刻了。
You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
你们知道，我们现在正处于我们历史上的一个决定性时刻。我们的民族被涉入两场战争（注：伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争），而我们正在经历自经济大萧条（注：1929年）以来最糟糕的金融危机。
And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.
尽管我们听说了相当多关于华尔街的事情，但你们那些在城镇主街上的人们（注：这里指美国城镇和乡村的典型居民）已经在（艰难地）努力了一段时间。你们都知道这（金融危机）也许会影响到经济的方方面面。
And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?
你们想要知道，它（金融危机）如何影响到我？如何影响到我的工作？如何影响到我的住宅？如何影响到我的退休金储蓄或者是送我孩子上大学的能力？
So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.
所以我们必须得即刻就行动了，而且我们得要明智地行动。我已经提出一系列的建议，以确保当我们从事这项重要的（金融）拯救行动时，纳税人（的权益）得到保护。
Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.
首先，我们必须确保整个过程有仔细的监督。可能（被国会通过）的7000亿美元是一笔相当大的数额。
Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.
第二，我们必须确保纳税人现在冒着风险投入的钱有可能拿回来并增加，只要市场――且当市场回复（正常）时。
Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.
第三，我们必须确保（这些钱）一分钱也不能变成CEO的银行账户或者成为黄金保护伞（注：企业的高级管理层或离任的政府官员在失去他们原来的工作后，在经济上给予其丰厚保障的安排）。
And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.
第四，我们必须确保我们正在帮助住宅所有者，因为问题的根源与在这个国家到处都在发生的无力偿付房贷有关。
Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.
现在，我们也必须承认这（金融危机）就是对议员麦凯恩所支持的乔治.布什这八年来失败的经济政策的最终裁决。（他们的）一个理论主要宣称的是我们可以撕碎（市场）管理和消费者保护，只要给予越来越多的（自由）直到极致，然后繁荣昌盛就会从天上掉下来。
It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.
（他们的）理论根本没有起过作用。而我认为经济的基础应该以中产阶级是否能进行公平交易作为衡量标准。这就是为什么我在竞选总统，这也是我所希望今晚我们将所讨论的。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:51:35
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 2 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.
主持人：麦凯恩议员，两分钟。
MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.
麦凯恩：好的，谢谢你，吉姆。谢谢所有人。
And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.
今晚我还有一个令人遗憾的消息：肯尼迪议员住院了。他是我们最亲爱的一个朋友。让我们向议会的雄狮表达挂念和祈祷。
I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.
我也要感谢今晚容纳我们的密西西比大学。
And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.
而吉姆，我――我近来一直对很多事情感到不满。许多面临困难的美国人们也和我一样。然而今晚我感觉稍微好些了，我会告诉你为什么。
Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.
这是因为我们在今晚这场辩论上，我们看到，这是相当长一段时间以来第一次共和党人和民主党人坐下来，尝试作出一个我们所面临的金融危机的解决方案。
（注：我认为麦凯恩此言，意在抨击民主党人的“不合作”。当然，这个“不合作”是由他所定义的。）
And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.
我们毫不怀疑这次危机的危害性。我们现在不是在讨论华尔街那些机构的破产，我们是在讨论城镇主街上（那些人）的破产。如果我们不解决掉这次重大的财政危机，也许――不，毫无疑问地，在我们的有生之年，人们将失去他们的工作，他们的银行存款和他们的家。（笑）我已经伴随（金融危机）一段时间了。
But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.
但重点是――重点是，我们终于看到了，共和党人和民主党人坐下来一起磋商并将提出一系列方案（注：由于找不到中文对应于package的这个意思，只好用一系列方案来代替了）。
This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.
这些方案应该有透明性。它们应该可以落实责任和监管。它们应该包括转让衰退中的生意的债权，而不是让政府直接接管这些债权。我们必须――不，这些方案还应当包括许多其他的必需元素。
And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.
还有，我回了一趟华盛顿，并会见了众议院的共和党议员们。他们并没有参与磋商，我理解。是共和党议会决定，他们也将是解决这次（金融危机）问题的一部分。
But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.
但今晚我想对所有的美国人强调一点。现在不是金融危机尾声的序幕。即使我们拿出一系列解决方案使得那些（金融）机构稳定，现在也只是金融危机序幕的尾声。
And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.
我们还有很多事情要做。我们得创造就业岗位。而创造就业岗位中一件（要做的）事情就是消除我们对外国石油的依赖。
（注：个人以为麦凯恩在最后几句话里渲染金融危机的严重性，然后稍微透露一点“宏图和前景”，企图加强美国人对他的依赖感。很古老的招数，但政客们都在用。）
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:56:39
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 3 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.
主持人：好的，让我们回到我的问题。你们两位在经济救援计划中站在哪边？直接告诉对方。我们还有5分钟。我们现在就可以在这里商讨出一个结果。
But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?
我（先前的）意思是，你们支持这个（经济救援）计划吗？奥巴马议员，还有你，麦凯恩议员？你支持这个计划吗？
OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.
奥巴马：我们还没有看到这个计划。我认为在（国会）正在进行一项建设性的工作。所以，我想对观众们说，我对我们一起提出一项计划的能力表示乐观。
（注：奥巴马这里回避了主持人的问题。他还是没有说他究竟是支持还是不支持。他的回答是一个non-answer，我们称为打太极、不表态。）
The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?
问题是，我在想，我们应该问问我们自己的是，我们是如何首次进入这种状况的？
Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.
两年前，我就警告过，由于次级贷款的混乱，由于松懈的管理，我们可能正在走向潜伏的问题。我还试图阻止一些当时抵押的滥用。
Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.
去年，我写信给财政部长，以确信他意识到这个问题的严重性。我呼吁他召集投资人设法解决这个问题。
So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.
所以，这个我们询问自己的问题，我认为，我们应该在短期内解决金融问题。我们需要干涉了，不容怀疑。
But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.
但我们也需要看看，是什么让我们撕裂了那么多的（金融）管理？我们没有设立一个21世纪的管理框架来处理这些问题。而这（金融危机）部分地与一种经济理念有关。这种经济理念说（金融）管理总是坏的。
（注：奥巴马不但回避了问题，而且开始了强烈地对布什政府，以及支持布什政府的麦凯恩议员的抨击，认为他们的观念有问题。）
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:58:32
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 4 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?
主持人：你会支持（金融拯救）计划吗，麦凯恩议员？
MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...
麦凯恩：我――我希望是，而且我……
LEHRER: As a United States senator...
主持人：作为一位美国的议员……
MCCAIN: Sure.
麦凯恩：当然。
LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?
主持人：……你是说你会投票支持这个计划？
MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.
麦凯恩：当然。但是――请让我――让我指出来，我同样也警告过了联邦抵押协会和联邦房贷抵押机构，警告过了（金融）企业的贪婪和无度，还有CEO的（高）薪水，所有这些。我们很多人都看到了这火车即将来临的失事。
（注：Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)
But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.
但这里同样要考虑责任的问题。你（主持人）提到了总统德怀特.大卫.艾森豪威尔。艾森豪威尔总统在进攻诺曼底的前夜，走进他的房间，写了两封信。
One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.
其中一封信是庆祝部队和盟军中的杰出成员成功地完成了历史上最伟大的一次进攻，到现在，直到永远。
And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.
他还写了另一封信。那是一封向美国军方的辞职信。辞职的理由是诺曼底登陆的失败。
Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.
不知何故，我们的责任没有落实。我一直饱受批评，因为我要求证券交易委员会的主席辞职。我们得让人们（为自己的工作）负责，并奖励那些（工作上）成功的人们。
But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.
然而，在今天的华盛顿――我恐怕华尔街也是，不知为何，贪婪得到奖励，无度得到奖励，而腐败，或者无疑地说失职得到奖励。
As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.
（如果）我是美国总统，在我的管理下，人们将（为自己的工作）负责。我向你们保证那将实现。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 19:59:40
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?
主持人：你有没有一些对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的话直接要说的，奥巴马议员？
OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.
奥巴马：嗯，我认为我们确实需要更多的责任（感），麦凯恩议员（在这点上）完全正确，但我们不应只在危机出现的时候才需要它（注：奥巴马此言，已经在影射麦凯恩及执政的共和党人在之前的不负责任，导致了现在的这场金融危机）。我指的是，在过去的数年时间里，占统治地位的经济思想总是考虑什么对华尔街有利，而不是什么对城镇大街（上的人们）有利。
And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.
而且，在（金融）危机发生之前，就有那么一些人在（辛苦地）挣扎了。这也是为什么我们在解决这个短期（金融）问题的时候，看看一些深层次的问题是如此重要。这些问题让普通美国人的工资和收入下降，让医疗系统破碎，让能源政策失效。因为……你知道，10天前，约翰（麦凯恩）还在说经济的根本还是健康的。
（注：奥巴马在这句话的最后提到“因为……”时，停顿了一下，他其实真正想说的是“就是像麦凯恩这样的共和党人导致了现在的金融问题”，但他需要仔细斟酌措辞，不能说得太过，以免被对手抓住把柄。麦凯恩其实也有苦衷，10天前他还没有意识到金融危机是如此迅速地展现在了所有人面前，他还以为那些华尔街的投资银行可以撑一段时间。也因为他还需要支撑住他背后的共和党，需要修饰共和党的执政能力。这使得他不得不硬着头皮说“经济根本还是健康的”。不料到了今天辩论的时候，几大投资银行相继破产或转行，他所说过的话也就成了奥巴马所攻击的把柄。这其实和某些人说“照片是真的”有异曲同工之妙。下面就看麦凯恩如何拆招了。）
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。
OBAMA: I do not think that they are.
奥巴马：我不认为经济的根本是健康的。
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。
OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the
fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...
奥巴马：好的，约翰，10天前，你还在说经济的根本还是健康的，而……
MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?
麦凯恩：（笑对主持人）你担心我听不到他说话吗？
(LAUGHTER)
（笑声）
LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each
other. I'm going to try.
主持人：我只是想要让你们俩互相交流。我想试试（笑）。
OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.
奥巴马：而我根本就不同意这点。除非我们不论什么时候都让我们（对我们的工作）负责，而不是在出现危机的时候。（这危机只是）让某些有权力和影响力的人可以雇佣说客（而已），而坦白地说，对于护士、教师、警员，每个月的月末，都有着金融危机在上演（注：这里指房贷）。
They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.
他们必须拿出额外的钱来偿还抵押贷款。我们一直没有注意到他们。但你们如果看看我们的税收政策，那就是一个典型的例子（注：指税收和房贷一样，都在抽取着普通美国人的收入）。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:00:13
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 6 楼
文章提交者：忍辱负重执政 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
给个下载链接看看呀
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:01:33
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 7 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
对不起，因为这个东西是我自己手工翻译的，所以只能一篇篇地贴上来。
我已经翻译了一半了。之所以想到要翻译这个，也是因为这几天偶然间看到了2008年美国总统竞选辩论的录像，觉得很有意思。想找个中文版看看，结果google了一下居然没有找到。再搜索了往届的辩论，也没有找到中文版。所以我就决定自己翻译一下发上来给大家共享一下。
我翻译得很烂，也很慢。但我想只要基本上把意思说清楚就行了。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:04:06
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 8 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.
主持人：那么，麦凯恩议员，你同意奥巴马议员刚才所说的吗？如果你不同意，告诉他你不同意什么。
MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.
麦凯恩：（我）不同意。我……你看，我们得修理（我们的金融）系统。这个系统的根本有些问题，而城镇大街（上的人们）正在为华盛顿和华尔街的无度和贪婪付出代价。
So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.
所以，毫不怀疑，我们有很长的路要走。而且，很明显地，对各种各样没有做好他们工作而导致了这场（金融）危机的管理机构（实行）更加严格的整理和合并。
（注：好个太极推手。麦凯恩接过奥巴马的咄咄逼人的锋头，顺势将这股力打向了金融管理机构。须知麦凯恩竞选的一个主要口号就是他要规整政府部门，改整机构。麦凯恩努力让大家把注意力集中在金融机构的失职上，而不是执政的共和党上，可谓用心良苦。然则美国老百姓也不是傻子。实事求是地说，这次金融危机，作为执政党的共和党确有较大责任。麦凯恩这一捣浆糊，看来很难糊弄过去。）
But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.
但我心中深信美国劳动人民的善良和力量。而且美国劳动人民是富有生产力和创造力的（人民）。美国仍然是（世界上）最大的生产国、出口国和进口国。
（注：当政客甜言蜜语地夸奖老百姓的能力时，就是要让老百姓做牛做马的时候了。麦凯恩寄希望于美国人民努力工作，把金融危机的洞给填实喽。这一招实在是失策啊！占人口大多数的美国工人不会吃这一套。而奥巴马想要从大企业家和富翁身上剥层皮来填金融的大洞，显然更能得到大多数美国人的欢心。从现在的支持率来看，也是如此。）
But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.
但我们一定要熬过这段时间，我深信美利坚合众国（能做到）。我还相信，在正确的领导下，幸福的生活就在我们前头。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:04:33
悄悄话 好友 信息 博客 搜索 回复 本主题下所有发言 第 9 楼
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: All right, let's go to the next lead question, which is essentially following up on this same subject.
主持人：好，让我们进入下一个引导问题。这个引导问题实质上是第一个问题的深化。
And you get two minutes to begin with, Senator McCain. And using your word "fundamental," are there fundamental differences between your approach and Senator Obama's approach to what you would do as president to lead this country out of the financial crisis?
主持人：麦凯恩议员，（这）两分钟从你那里开始。（我）用你的词语“本质”。如果作为总统，领导这个国家走出经济危机，你的方法和奥巴马议员的方法有什么本质上的区别？
MCCAIN: Well, the first thing we have to do is get spending under control in Washington. It's completely out of control. It's gone -- we have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the Great Society.
麦凯恩：呃，我们得做的第一件事情就是控制华盛顿（注：指美国政府）的开销。它（开销）完全无法控制了。它已经脱缰而出――我们现在是眼巴巴地看着（我们）建国以来政府规模最大的膨胀。
We Republicans came to power to change government, and government changed us. And the -- the worst symptom on this disease is what my friend, Tom Coburn, calls earmarking as a gateway drug, because it's a gateway. It's a gateway to out-of-control spending and corruption.
我们共和党人拥有了改变政府的力量，而政府也改变了我们。而――这种病最坏的症状，正如我的朋友，汤姆.科本所说，财政特别拨款是一种入门毒品，因为那是一扇门，一扇通向不受控制的花销和腐败的大门。
（注：麦凯恩这里没有说只有民主党人有腐败，而是坦诚说道共和党人也有人中毒了。gateway drug: 有一种假设，认为服用不大容易上瘾的药品可能会引人服用更加危险的毒品甚至引人犯罪。香烟、酒精等常常被人们称为gateway drug。我这里把它翻译为入门毒品。）
And we have former members of Congress now residing in federal prison because of the evils of this earmarking and pork-barrel spending.
我们国会的一些前成员，因为在财政拨款和地方建设经费上犯的错误，现在正蹲在联邦监狱里面。
You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don't know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers' money. And it has got to be brought under control.
你知道吗，我们花费了300万美元，用在研究蒙大纳州的熊的DNA上面。我不知道这究竟是（有人）犯罪还是家长式作风，但事实上是，那可是我们纳税人的300万美元呐。那应该被控制住。
（注：蒙大纳州：美国西北部与加拿大接壤的一个州。1889年被接纳为美国第41个州。大部分地区通过1803年路易斯安那的购买归属美国，路易斯和克拉克在1805年和1806年勘查了此地。经过多年在其他西部地区分裂之后在1864年组成蒙大纳地区。赫勒拿是该州首府，比林斯是最大城市。人口803,655）
As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen. This one's kind of old. I've got a pen, and I'm going to veto every single spending bill that comes across my desk. I will make them famous. You will know their names.
（如果我）作为美国的总统，我要向你们保证――我有一只钢笔，这只有几分旧了――我有一只钢笔，而我将会否决掉每一笔经过我办公桌的开销提议。我会让它们臭名昭著。你们将知道它们的名字。
Now, Senator Obama, you wanted to know one of the differences. He has asked for $932 million of earmark pork-barrel spending, nearly a million dollars for every day that he's been in the United States Senate.
现在，奥巴马议员，你想要知道我们的一个区别。他（奥巴马）已经请求了9.32亿美元的财政拨款，自他当上美国议员后的每一天几乎都要走了100万美元。
I suggest that people go up on the Web site of Citizens Against Government Waste, and they'll look at those projects.
我建议人们登陆反对政府浪费公民网，就会看到（奥巴马）那些项目。
That kind of thing is not the way to rein in runaway spending in Washington, D.C. That's one of the fundamental differences that Senator Obama and I have.
那样的事情不是让华盛顿的开销放慢下来的做法。这就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质的区别。
（注：麦凯恩终于亮牌了，且看奥巴马下面如何应对。）
文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Senator Obama, two minutes.
主持人：奥巴马议员，两分钟。
OBAMA: Well, Senator McCain is absolutely right that the earmarks process has been abused, which is why I suspended any requests for my home state, whether it was for senior centers or what have you, until we cleaned it up.
奥巴马：呃，好的，特别拨款程序已经被滥用了，麦凯恩议员（在这一点上）完全正确。这也是为什么我暂停了来自我家乡的任何（拨款）申请，不论是为了老年中心还是诸如此类，直到我们（政府）有了盈余为止。
（注：Earmark -> 在美国，Earmark指的是议员为他们的州或者地区所争取到的特别拨款。每个州或地区的居民选出一个议员来代表他们的利益，而这个议员则会向国会争取特别拨款来建设他们的家乡。这些财政拨款来自于所有美国人的税收。这些钱可称得上是取之于民，用之于民。如果议员将其中一部分钱据为己有，就叫作 "pork barrel"。一些联邦的议员已经为此进了大牢。）
And he's also right that oftentimes lobbyists and special interests are the ones that are introducing these kinds of requests, although that wasn't the case with me.
而且很多时候说客和特殊需要是引入这类（拨款）申请的源头，他（麦凯恩）（在这一点上）也是正确的。然而我的情况却有所不同。
But let's be clear: Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing -- and this is a fundamental difference between us -- $300 billion in tax cuts to some of the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country, $300 billion.
让我们把话说清楚：在去年的预算中，特别拨款占了180亿美元。麦凯恩议员建议――这是我们俩的一个本质上的区别――向某些这个国家上最为富有的企业和个人的3000亿美元的减税计划，3000亿美元。
Now, $18 billion is important; $300 billion is really important. And in his tax plan, you would have CEOs of Fortune 500 companies getting an average of $700,000 in reduced taxes, while leaving 100 million Americans out.
现在，180亿美元重要；3000亿美元则非常重要。在他（麦凯恩）的减税计划中，你会发现财富500强企业的CEO们平均减税70万美元，而一亿美国人却被排除在外。
So my attitude is, we've got to grow the economy from the bottom up. What I've called for is a tax cut for 95 percent of working families, 95 percent.
所以我的态度是，我们得让经济从底层增长起来。我所呼吁的是向百分之95的工薪家庭的减税计划，百分之95。
And that means that the ordinary American out there who's collecting a paycheck every day, they've got a little extra money to be able to buy a computer for their kid, to fill up on this gas that is killing them.
那意味着那些每天都在挣薪水普通美国人，会有一些额外的钱来给他们的孩子购买电脑，来（给他们的车）加满那些要他们命的汽油。
And over time, that, I think, is going to be a better recipe for economic growth than the -- the policies of President Bush that John McCain wants to -- wants to follow.
而随着时间的过去，我认为，（我的方案）将是让经济增长的更好的处方――比麦凯恩议员想要遵循的布什总统的政策更好。
LEHRER: Senator McCain?
主持人：麦凯恩议员？
MCCAIN: Well, again, I don't mean to go back and forth, but he...
麦凯恩：这个，我再说一次，我不是要来回扯皮，但是他……
(CROSSTALK)
（插话）
LEHRER: No, that's fine.
主持人：没关系。
MCCAIN: Senator Obama suspended those requests for pork-barrel projects after he was running for president of the United States. He didn't happen to see that light during the first three years as a member of the United States Senate, $932 million in requests.
麦凯恩：奥巴马议员在竞选美国总统开始後就停止了那些拨款申请项目。而在他作为美国议会成员的前三年，没有见过他良心发现，9.32亿美元的申请啊。
（注：麦凯恩真够阴的，这句话我认为是在诱导听众制造假象。只要仔细思考一下，就会知道奥巴马之所以在竞选总统後停止了拨款申请，很有可能是因为太忙了，没有时间去国会辩论、争取那些建设经费了。而麦凯恩这么说乃是要误导听众，让大家以为是奥巴马在竞选总统後，为了装纯洁，而暂时放弃了拨款申请。）
Maybe to Senator Obama it's not a lot of money. But the point is that -- you see, I hear this all the time. "It's only $18 billion." Do you know that it's tripled in the last five years? Do you know that it's gone completely out of control to the point where it corrupts people? It corrupts people.
也许对奥巴马议员来说那算不上多少钱。但问题是――你看，我总是听到这个:（又尖又长的挖苦音调）“不过是180亿美元”。你知道那（特别拨款）在过去五年里翻了三倍吗？你知道那已经脱缰而出无法控制，以至于腐化官员了吗？它腐化着人们。
That's why we have, as I said, people under federal indictment and charges. It's a system that's got to be cleaned up.
那就是为什么，如我所说，一些人遭到联邦起诉和控告。这是一个急需修整的系统。
I have fought against it my career. I have fought against it. I was called the sheriff, by the -- one of the senior members of the Appropriations Committee. I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate.
在我的职业生涯中，我一直在与之（腐败）斗争。我被一位财政拨款局的高级成员称为“县官”。我可不是美国议会中的好好先生。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:05:16
参考资料：美国国会和特别拨款制度
来源：维基百科
翻译和整理:renqilin
美国国会是一个立法机构，就是专门制定法律的机构。它有那么一点点类似于我国的人大。但它不是美国的最高权力机关。实际上，美国根本就没有“最高的”权力机关。它（国会）包括两个机构：参议院（也称为上院）和众议院（下院）。参议院的成员叫做议员(Senetor)，而众议院里的成员则叫代表(Representative)。参议院和众议院里的每一个成员都是由最普通的美国人直接选举出来的。
美国宪法规定，众议院里由435位代表组成，每位都代表了一个选区（每个州可能有多个选区）。每位代表的任期是两年，而每个州的代表人数则由该州的人口数量来决定。
宪法规定，参议院由100位议员组成。每个州只能有两位议员，不管人口多少。议员的任期是六年。但议员不是每过六年才选举，而是每两年选举一次（和众议院的代表一样），大约三分之一的议员将会被这两年一次的选举替换掉。
所以，对于普通美国人来说，他要选的人其实不多。每两年，他选举3、4位议员或代表来为他及他的家乡争取利益，每过4年，他选举一位总统就完事了。
全美国立法就靠这435+100=535位代表了。任何一项法律都要同时经过参议院和众议院的同意，以及总统签字，才能生效。然而，参议院和众议院在各自的权力上，又有不同点。参议院对于美国外交条约和总统的任命有着最终的同意或否决权。而增加税收的法案却只能由众议院发起（因为众议院更能代表美国百姓）。众议院有着一项独一无二的权力，那就是它可以弹劾任何一个美国政府官员。然而众议院也仅仅只能弹劾而已（就是只能控诉说谁谁谁犯了错误），审讯政府官员的权力则独一无二地在参议院的手里。而至于将政府官员免职和定罪，那又是另外的程序了，这里我就不再深究了。
说完了美国国会，现在来谈谈Appropriations Committee，我将之翻译为财政拨款局。它是参议院(100人）的一个常务委员会，也是最大的委员会，由29位成员组成。根据美国宪法规定，这个委员会的职责是确保法定拨款必须优先于其他任何从国库中的支出，正因为此，它也是权力最大的委员会之一。
美国财政拨款分为两类，一类是法定的强制性拨款，另一类是特别拨款（即麦凯恩在竞选中强烈抨击的appropriation bill）。法定拨款优先于任何支出，例如国家安全就是法定的。有些法律是有过期期限的，一旦该条法律过期，其相关的强制性拨款也就不复存在了。
而特别拨款则可以用于任何目的，例如如麦凯恩提到的，研究熊的DNA。然而特别拨款要求也很严格，必须同时经过参议院和众议院的同意，必须低于财政拨款局提出的预算限制，必须经过总统批准。
引用资料：
1. United States Congress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress
2. United States Senate Committee on Appropriations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States..._Appropriations
3. Impeachment in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_i...e_United_States
4. Direct election
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_election
5. United States budget process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States...dget_Resolution
6. Appropriation bill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_bill
Now, Senator Obama didn't mention that, along with his tax cuts, he is also proposing some $800 billion in new spending on new programs.
麦凯恩：现在，奥巴马议员没有提到，伴随着他的减税计划，还有用于新项目的8000亿美元的花费。
Now, that's a fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama. I want to cut spending. I want to keep taxes low. The worst thing we could do in this economic climate is to raise people's taxes.
那就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质区别。我想要消减（政府）花费。我想要保持低税率。在当前的经济气候下，最坏的事情就是从人民那里增加税收了。
OBAMA: I -- I don't know where John is getting his figures. Let's just be clear. What I do is I close corporate loopholes, stop providing tax cuts to corporations that are shipping jobs overseas so that we're giving tax breaks to companies that are investing here in the United States. I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage.
奥巴马：我――我不知道约翰（麦凯恩）从哪里得到他那些数据。让我们说清楚点。我所做的事情是关闭公司的漏洞，停止对那些向海外输出工作（机会）的企业的减税。这样我们才可以给在美国本土投资的企业减税。我确保我们有一个让每个人都得到基本覆盖的医疗系统。
I think those are pretty important priorities. And I pay for every dime of it.
我认为这些是要优先考虑的重要的事情。我会为之花出每一分钱。
But let's go back to the original point. John, nobody is denying that $18 billion is important. And, absolutely, we need earmark reform. And when I'm president, I will go line by line to make sure that we are not spending money unwisely.
但让我们回到开始的问题。约翰（麦凯恩），没有人否认180亿美元的重要性。而且，我们也的的确确需要改革专项拨款（制度）。当我是总统时，我将会一行一行地（检查拨款提议以）确保我们没有不智地乱花钱。
But the fact is that eliminating earmarks alone is not a recipe for how we're going to get the middle class back on track.
但问题是仅仅消除专项拨款，并不是让中产阶级回到正常轨道上来的办法。
OBAMA: And when you look at your tax policies that are directed primarily at those who are doing well, and you are neglecting people who are really struggling right now, I think that is a continuation of the last eight years, and we can't afford another four.
你看看你的税收政策，它主要对准的是那些（工作）做得好的人们，而你还在忽视那些现在正在挣扎着的人们。我认为那（麦凯恩的政策）是过去八年的延续，我们不能承受再一个四年了。
*.*.*.* 2008-10-11 20:12:37
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文章提交者：renqilin 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net
LEHRER: Respond directly to him about that, to Senator Obama about that, about the -- he's made it twice now, about your tax -- your policies about tax cuts.
主持人：（麦凯恩议员，）直接向奥巴马议员回答那个，那个）――他已经指出来两次了，关于你的减税政策。
MCCAIN: Well -- well, let me give you an example of what Senator Obama finds objectionable, the business tax.
麦凯恩：这个――这个，让我给你们一个被奥巴马议员找出来反对的例子，商业税。
Right now, the United States of American business pays the second-highest business taxes in the world, 35 percent. Ireland pays 11 percent.
目前，在美利坚合众国的生意缴纳着世界第二高的商业税，百分之35。在爱尔兰（只需）缴纳百分之11。
Now, if you're a business person, and you can locate any place in the world, then, obviously, if you go to the country where it's 11 percent tax versus 35 percent, you're going to be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment, et cetera.
现在，如果你是一个生意人，而你可以（把你的生意）放在世界上的任何位置，然后，显然，相对于收百分之35税的国家，如果你去只收百分之11的国家，你将可以创造工作机会，做大你的生意，作出更多的投资，等等。
I want to cut that business tax. I want to cut it so that businesses will remain in -- in the United States of America and create jobs.
我希望削减商业税。我希望削减它使得生意能够留在――留在美利坚合众国并创造工作（机会）。
But, again, I want to return. It's a lot more than $18 billion in pork-barrel spending. I can tell you, it's rife. It's throughout.
但，再说一次，我想回到（特别拨款的话题）。它远比180亿美元的建设经费花销多。我可以告诉你，它相当普遍，它已经遍及了（整个议会）。
The United States Senate will take up a continuing resolution tomorrow or the next day, sometime next week, with 2,000 -- 2,000 -- look at them, my friends. Look at them. You'll be appalled.
美国参议院将要继续一项决议，明天，也许后天，也许下个周。那是2000――2000――瞅瞅那个，我的朋友。瞅瞅，你会被吓坏的。
And Senator Obama is a recent convert, after requesting $932 million worth of pork-barrel spending projects.
而奥巴马议员最近洗手了，在申请了价值9.32亿美元的特别拨款项目后。
So the point is, I want people to have tax cuts. I want every family to have a $5,000 refundable tax credit so they can go out and purchase their own health care. I want to double the dividend from $3,500 to $7,000 for every dependent child in America.
所以问题是，我希望人们得到减税。我希望每个家庭得到五千美元的退税，这样，他们能出去购买他们自己的医疗保障。我希望每一个抚养美国贫苦儿童的奖金翻番，由3500美元到7000美元。
I know that the worst thing we could possibly do is to raise taxes on anybody, and a lot of people might be interested in Senator Obama's definition of "rich."
我知道我们最糟的做法也许就是向任何人增加税收，而许许多多人也许都会对奥巴马议员所谓的“富裕”感兴趣。
